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Talk:Eight Humans/@comment-35012101-20180316070223/@comment-32182236-20180506114823
"Starting from Chara tripping into the hole, let's actually examine that. The banishment of the monsters took place so long ago that it's no longer in living memory for the humans. This is stated outright in-game. All that remains is vague rumours about people vanishing after climbing the mountain, which means Chara could not have climbed the mountain looking for the monsters, because no one knows the monsters are there (let alone that they could absorb a SOUL)." No, it just says it was many years later. And it's clear the humans remembered the war, because of how they reacted to Asriel-As Rafip pointed out. Though, it is true that people vanishing has been reduced to legend-Likely because all we knew at the time is that the monsters were banished underground-Not specifically which mountain-That specific detail would be forgotten. (It wasn't stated at all in the intro which mountain it was-When we do get a specific mountain, that's when it just says that legends say they vanish.) However, Chara linked the vanishing with the Barrier, which we DID still know about. They then started to put the pieces together-They were SEALED underground-So if a human fell underground, they would be sealed too-They'd "vanish". They connected the rumours of vanishing with what they knew about the monsters, and concluded that the monsters must have been in that mountain. "Chara climbed the mountain to 'vanish,' in other words, to die. Just because they tripped does not mean they intended to survive climbing the mountain." Words from Asriel:"I know why Chara climbed the mountain. It wasn't for a very happy reason. Frisk, I'll be honest with you. Chara hated humanity." Chara climbed the mountain because they hated humanity. This means they A-Wanted to distance themselves from humanity, or B-Wanted to find a way to kill humanity. They could have killed themselves in many other manners, and, as I said, Chara tripped-They didn't jump. I find it strange that Chara DIDN'T jump as soon as they saw the hole, if they intended to die. It's very clear that it's one of the two reasons I said-To distance themselves from humanity, or to kill humanity. They accomplished the former when they survived the fall, and tried, but failed, to accomplish the latter. "There is no literature in the Underground that tells you that absorbed SOULs share control with their host." There's also no literature telling us about Part 2 and Part 3 of Monster History. Just because we don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Besides, what we see of Part 1 is after the war-But Part 1 should talk about the war itself as well, because it's the first part.. And it DOES. We skipped that, because we opened a random page. We never get to see all the books, we could have missed that. As for proof? Well, that's what my Asriel quote is for! "Asriel is the first monster in living memory to accomplish the feat (presumably there were others in the past, but nothing but vague legends remain about them)." We don't know how much the humans know about monsters-We never get to explore the Surface. Saying they don't know about monsters absorbing human SOULs is baseless conjecture-And considering said ability is why the war happened in the first place, and as soon as they saw Asriel, they thought he killed Chara.. Actually, let's go over this one. It's the subject of a lot of confusion-We're never given the exact reason why they thought Asriel killed Chara:Let's try and figure it out. Now, one could argue that it was simply because Asriel was holding a dead body.. But that could easily just be a burial (And in fact, that's exactly what it was). Humans were aware of the practice during this era-They had no reason to assume Asriel killed someone because of that. But, they DID have evidence Asriel killed someone-The evidence is Asriel himself. He took the form of a monster with a human SOUL, and was on the Surface! Out of the Underground! That was clear evidence that Asriel took a SOUL, and that is why they thought Asriel killed someone.. They looked at the body, and deduced Chara was the one he killed. So.. They knew about the ability to absorb a human SOUL. So yes, that CAN be a reason why Chara climbed the mountain. "Chara asking to see the golden flower field was just an excuse (although there may have been some truth to it, seeing as they did go there) for Asriel to get out of the Underground. Hating humanity and the village doesn't mean there weren't places and things they liked-after all, it's not like the flowers were human." They left the village for a reason-They wouldn't suddenly decide the flowers are worth being with humans, after already deciding against it by climbing the mountain. Speaking of which, they still hated humanity after they fell. Why would they want to bring humans and monsters back together, rather than killing the humans? "It was premeditated that Chara would die, that Asriel would take their SOUL, and that Asriel would leave the Underground (using the excuse of fulfilling Chara's last request) to retrieve 6 others, but Chara taking control was just a bit of opportunistic douchebaggery, not the scheming evil they're being accused of." That would mean Chara had faith Asriel would go through with the plan.. But then, that couldn't be the case, because Chara took control anyway. They picked up their body, and brought it to the flowers. They wanted the humans to think Asriel killed them.. But for once, I'm going to argue Chara had a "justified" reason for this. They set it up, to answer the question Asriel asked, again and again-Why did they hate humanity? This was why... However, this does start presenting some problems for Chara later on.. Moral problems, not logical ones-There's no inconsistencies. Except for the extra boxes on the Genocide Route. Also, Chara ALSO did this so it would be easier to convince Asriel to eventually eradicate ALL of the humans. Which, of course, failed before it even began. "As for Asriel's "We'll do it together" line, haven't you ever seen a dramatic moment where the hero takes a keepsake from a fallen comrade and reaffirms his vow to finish whatever fight they were in? The wording is usually very similar. The hero usually means it symbolically-they almost never intend to spend the rest of their lives sharing headspace with an angry ghost." Pretty sure it'd be closer to:"I'll finish this.. For you.. So that your efforts not be in vain.." Also, if we're going in the meta direction, then I'll be using a meta argument as well-Undertale basically inverts/subverts just about every cliche in the book. That would include this one. I suggest we go back to the game, and not the meta, where there is only chaos, complexity, confusion, and false information-Where it's impossible to distinguish fact from fiction. "Chara's biggest contribution to 'eradicating the enemy' is providing information and a count of how many more you have to kill before you can't fight any more." It seems you completely missed my argument directly above that-It was a rebuttal. You said they only start taking lver and destroying the world at max LV-I say that this is because they've finally become strong enough to do this. "They don't egg you on to kill more, despite what some fan interpretations would show." "Strongly felt X left. Shouldn't procced yet."-Charrator ...Actually, they do. "Looks like free EXP". "They also skip Papyrus' puzzles and kill sans and Asgore. Even at max LV, though, you have to force them to kill Flowey. They won't strike him until you hit the button." OBJECTION! You say that because we have to press Z, we are making the decision? Z is the button to progress through dialouge. To progress through many things. By pressing Z, we are only progressing. That is all. Read this for more info:http://nochocolate.tumblr.com/post/145625412741/chara-kills-flowey-without-your-permission "Your actions shape who Chara is. If you act evilly, you meet an evil Chara, because that's what happens when you bring an impressionable child on a murder spree." ...We're human. Chara hates humanity. They should just see this as more evidence that humans are despicable, and be against us, rather than with us. "I will not say Chara was 'good,' however. All evidence kinda points to them being, at best, Neutral (probably closer to Neutral Evil, considering all the unethical stuff they did)." Even when we leave good impressions. Exactly. Because Chara, by default, is evil. "As for the last point, I think you've got your causation backwards. I think it was one of the books in the Librarby that said intent was a major factor in attacking monsters, therefore a solid human attacking with murderous intent is practically unstoppable." That's talking about LV's ATK-Not weapons. If what you said is true, all the other weapons should have had their ATK imcreased when we picked up the True Knife-But this is not the case. (Also, items suddenly changing for no apparent reason based on routes have happened before:All the boxes in Hotland/CORE/New Home do not exist outside of Genocide) "By the time you find the Real Knife, you've made it perfectly clear that murder is your only intent, therefore its attack reflects that (not that it matters, since the only monster you actually fight after that only has one hp). In other words, it has such high attack because Chara sees it as a weapon." No, that's why CHARA has a high attack. Well, other than "growing strong", that is.